4853: This code can refer to: Cardholder Dispute of a Recurring Transaction; Goods or. Reason code 53 is typically used when a cardholder received merchandise or service that was defective, damaged, or not as described, while reason code 85 is used when credit was not processed to the. txt) or read online for free. While technically functional, it is being consolidated into 4853, and therefore should not be used. . The Mastercard dispute reason code 4853 Cardholder dispute is a relatively new reason code which is raised when the cardholder contacted their issuer claiming that one of the following dispute reasons is applicable: Services not provided/Merchandise not received. As part of its processing structure, Mastercard categorizes chargebacks into four main categories:. MasterCard chargeback reason codes are a set of four digits beginning with the 48xx. 246 5. Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks Added the Valid Chip/PIN Transaction table within the Fraud-related Chargebacks section, Chip/PIN. Only applicable to reason codes. Reason code 4853 falls under the broad category “Cardholder Dispute,” meaning the cardholder is saying something about the transaction is wrong. The Mastercard chargeback reason codes were condensed blue in 2016, like the process that Tourist just underwent with Visa Claims Resolution. 12 Example 12—Message Reason Code 4853—Cardholder Dispute. Reason Code 4853: Counterfeit Goods. 9, 1 September 2016. Evidence to show the exchange and transfer of BINARY currency completed including the relevant timestamped blockchain. ” In general, this means the cardholder was not happy with a purchase and blames the merchant. The following are some examples: Visa Reason Code 13. Visa Chargeback Reason code 53 is based on claims from card owners that the merchandise was defective, or not same as on the online. pdf), Text File (. Proof that the chargeback is invalid because it doesn’t adhere to Mastercard requirements. 4853. . 4853. Chapter 6 Pre-Arbitration and Arbitration Case Filing-For Chargebacks Initiated On or After 17 July 2020 > Time Frames and Requirements > Dual Message System Pre-Arbitration andMastercard is in the process of updating chargeback management regulations. They shouldn't exceed 540 days from the transaction date. 6. Region Only)Chargeback Reason Codes. A customer may file a chargeback if they stopped recurring billing (cancelled a subscription or membership) in their account, but. 3: Goods or services were not received: C08: RG: 4855: 13. Mastercard chargeback reason code 4853: Goods/Services Not Provided covers disputes where a customer claims a merchant didn't deliver as promised. Steps to Prevention. 3 - 4853 Cardholder Dispute A Cardholder Dispute chargeback may be submitted when the cardholder contacted the issuer alleging one of the following:Note: Mastercard has discontinued the use of reason code 4860, merging it into code 4853. Chargeback Message Reason Code 4901. You’ll want to carefully review all chargeback reason codes so you are familiar with the very detailed regulations. For example, Visa's dispute code 13. 6. com on 5/26/2016. Either the chargeback must be processed within 120 calendar days of: the date on the credit documentation, or. MASTERCARD 4853 CardholderDispute Defective/ Not as Described Cancelled/Returned by Cardholder NO YES MASTERCARD 4854 CardholderDispute-Not. Under certain circumstances, Mastercard may allow consumers to reverse a payment card transaction by filing a. 1 - EMV Liability Shift Counterfeit Fraud ; Condition 10. Category. Product unacceptable chargebacks are represented by American Express reason code C31, Visa reason code 53, MasterCard reason code 4853, or Discover reason code 4553. Chargeback Message Reason Code 4901. Retry after 8 days. A recurring transaction is a payment card charge that automatically reoccurs on a. No-Show Hotel Charge. for chargeback reason code 4863 (Cardholder Does Not Recognize). Written by Chargeback Gurus. While there are reason codes related to processing errors that cause disputes, the majority of reason codes result from a cardholder disputing a charge. Prevention strategy: Implement EMV chip card technology to reduce the risk of fraudulent card-present transactions. 4853 – Cardholder Dispute – Counterfeit Goods. Global Operations Bulletin No. Chargeback reason code 4853/Credit Not Processed applies to situations where customers claim they are owed a refund or other credit that has not appeared, but do not feel the issue being resolved by the merchant. Payment method Payment amount Dispute reason code triggered Dispute code category. 12 Example 12—Message Reason Code 4853—Cardholder Dispute. 4837 — No Cardholder Authorization. The card issuer must wait at least 30 calendar days from the date the cardholder returned the merchandise, before charging back the transaction. S. Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks Added the Valid Chip/PIN Transaction table within the Fraud-related Chargebacks section, Chip/PIN. Mastercard Reason Code 4853: Addendum Dispute refers to cases where customers claim an additional charge was added to their bill after the fact. 4808 – Authorization-Related Chargeback – Cardholder-Activated Terminal (CAT) 3 Device. Below are some examples of more common reason codes. Chargeback Message Reason Code 4901. Proof you adhered to required purchase controls including purchases are disabled by default, authorization information must be re-entered after 15 minutes of inactivity, you clearly display the full. MDR also retired reason code 4840 – Fraudulent Processing of Transactions. Visa chargeback codes are broken up into four categories: Fraudulent activity; Authorization issues; Processing errors; Customer disputes; Fraudulent activity Chargeback can only be requested under specific circumstances known as 'reason codes', as determined by guidelines set by American Express, Mastercard or Visa. 12 Example 12—Message Reason Code 4853—Cardholder Dispute. Proof that the chargeback is invalid because it doesn’t adhere to Mastercard. The actual underlying cause of this chargeback may be true fraud, friendly fraud, or merchant error. 4854 Cardholder Dispute—Not Elsewhere Classified (U. 13 Example 13—Message Reason Code. 3 – Not As Described or Defective Merchandise/Services; Mastercard Reason Code 4853 – Goods or Services Not Provided; American Express Reason Code C08 – Goods/Services Not Received or Only Partially Received; Other reason codes are specific and only applicable to certain types of. The chargeback timeline can be based on one of several start dates: If the delivery date or service performance date was not specified, the issuer must wait at least 30 calendar days after the transaction processing date to initiate the chargeback but not exceed 120 calendar days. . Know these five rules to avoid payroll blunders triggering fines, penalties and IRS audits. Global Operations Bulletin No. Each MasterCard chargeback reason code has its own designated time limit within which it must be initiated. Chargeback Reason Encryption The Ultimate Guide; BIN Lookup Find a Card's Exhibition Bank; ROI Tool The Cost concerning Chargebacks; Resource Hubs. 246 5. In such. This authoritative guide includes the chargeback reason key from each from the four major card netz. 2: EMV Liability Shift Non-Counterfeit Fraud: 10. Replaced Chapter 5—Arbitration Procedures, with Chapter 4—Arbitration Case Filing. 4812 Account Number Not On File. Product/service not received. 6. Mastercard 4853 – Cardholder dispute. 6 | Mastercard Reason Code 4853. The list of chargeback reason codes in this article is organized by card brand and type of dispute. 13 Example 13—Message Reason Code. How do you use reason codes? A chargeback often has a reason code associated with it. If you are not able to understand the chargeback and its reason codes then you can get an expert. 246 5. 5. S. Get our complete guide to Mastercard purpose codes, including all the detailed information, chargeback time limits, also various important information to need. If you’re dealing with chargebacks, take into account the above mentioned information to tackle your problems with ease. 4853: Cardholder Dispute – Defective / Not as Described: 4854: Cardholder Dispute – Not Elsewhere Classified (U. Typically, cardholders file a chargeback if they were not informed of dynamic currency conversion fees or were not given the option to complete the sale in their local currency. This includes, but is not limited to: • Goods or Services Not Provided • Goods or Services Were Either Not as Described or Defective • Credit Not Processed53 4853 Not as Described or Defective Merchandise 57 4840 Fraudulent Multiple Transactions 62 4870/4871 Counterfeit Transaction Being familiar with the potential chargeback reason codes gives recurring . Ensure you act on subscription cancellation requests immediately and confirm the cancellation by text or email. Aforementioned definitive guide includes and chargeback reason codes from each of the four major bill networks. Deferred Chargeback Raise: 128: Chargeback on Fraudulent Transaction: Fraud Chargeback Raise:With Phase 1, Mastercard requires more information from issuers before filing a chargeback. FAQ: What is Chargeback Representment?. 13 Example 13—Message Reason Code. . All but two fall under Mastercard chargeback reason code 4853 (Cardholder Disputes): Reason Code 4808 Authorization-Related Chargeback. 12 Example 12—Message Reason Code 4853—Cardholder Dispute. Following the Mastercard dispute guidelines, consumer dispute chargebacks are filed under reason code 4853 - Cardholder Dispute. Either the chargeback must be processed within 120 calendar days of: the date on the credit documentation, or. Replaced Chapter 5—Arbitration Procedures, with Chapter 4—Arbitration Case Filing. There are two common causes of code 10. Partnerships; Integrations; About. 9, 1 September 2016. Region Only) 4855 Goods or Services Not Provided. 12 Example 12—Message Reason Code 4853—Cardholder Dispute. 4863 – Cardholder Does Not Recognize. One of the following corresponding to the Second Presentment Condition: 1. If you received a Chargeback Advice letter, it may give you case-specific requirements. 12 Example 12—Message Reason Code 4853—Cardholder Dispute. It will be incorporated into code 4853. Post Views: 1,855. English (selected). In simple terms, Mastercard Chargeback Reason Code 4859 — No Show/Addendum/ATM Dispute refers to situations where a customer. Here are just a few of the most common Mastercard chargeback reason codes, as well as potential solutions for handling them. 5. Fight; Prevent; Recover; Predict; Success Story; Resources. consumer dispute chargebacks are filed under reason code 4853. Removed these Discover Chargeback Codes: AL, CA, IC, IS, NC, SV, U03, UNR. These mandates often involve changes to the transaction process, the addition or removal of certain chargeback reason codes, or changes to the various phases and deadlines involved in the chargeback process. Mastercard Chargeback Reason Code 4853: Cardholder Dispute – Defective/Not as Described Description The issuing bank received a claim from the cardholder that. 2:. Reason Code. 4860 Credit Not Processed. Level 3/Phase 3: Second presentment, second chargeback, or pre-arbitration. 5. Chargeback reason code 4853: Cardholder Dispute applies to situations in which a customer feels they have been cheated or misled. Authorization-related Chargeback: 90 calendar days: 4853: Cardholder dispute: 120 calendar days: 4837/4849/4870/4871: Fraud - No cardholder authorization. 6. Chargeback Message Reason Code 4901. 4853 "No Show" Hotel Charge. MasterCard time limits vary depending on the applicable reason code. This reason code indicates that the cardholder is disputing the transaction as a duplicate charge. . Mastercard is in the process of updating chargeback management regulations. FAQ: What is Chargeback Representment? TIPS. To generate a chargeback, the issuer must submit the First Chargeback / 1442 message with the applicable message reason. Chargeback Message Reason Code 4901. If you receive a chargeback from a cardholder, blacklist them and. Note: Mastercard has discontinued the use of reason code 4859, merging it into code 4853. 1 - Card Recovery Bulletin. 10. Info Us; In and. 13 Example 13—Message Reason Code. 2 - EMV Liability Shift Non-Counterfeit Fraud. Below are the top causes of chargebacks including the reason codes established by leading credit card companies: Customer Dissatisfaction: Cardholder did not receive the items/service purchased, the products/services were not as described and/or product (s) was damaged or otherwise defective. A few other common reason codes for Visa include late presentment; non-receipt of cash from ATM; invalid data; EMV liability shift non-counterfeit fraud; no authorization; canceled merchandise and fraud related to stolen cards on the card recovery bulletin. Below you will find the reasons codes for the dispute special Chargeback, Claim by Information (RFI) and Warning of Fake (NOF). What tracking is a quick reference guide for all the current reason codes for anywhere a the four major credits card networks: Visa, Mastercard, Yank Express, also Discover. Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks Added the Valid Chip/PIN Transaction table within the Fraud-related Chargebacks section, Chip/PIN. The reasons for chargebacks can be due to errors made by the merchant when submitting credit card transactions or violation of the card brands operating regulations. The terms may be different, but the process remains fairly unchanged. Legacy. The code can be used in multiple specific situations; when necessary, an additional message will be provided along with the reason code to inform the merchant which particular type of chargeback applies to the claim. Chargeback Reason Codes The Ultimate Guide; BIN Lookup Find a Card's Issuing Bank; ROI Tool The Cost of Chargebacks; Resource Hubs. The Chargeback Reason Codes specifies the fraud, expired card, defective merchandise, differ amount and many others. 4853: Cardholder Dispute: 4841: Canceled Recurring or Digital Goods Transactions : 4854: Cardholder Dispute—Not Elsewhere Classified (U. This is commonly caused by either true fraud or friendly fraud. 4853: Cardholder Dispute: Cardholder Disputes: 4841: Canceled Recurring or Digital Goods Transactions: Cardholder Disputes: 4854:View the entire list or search for any chargeback reason code. Mastercard Chargeback Reason Codes | Sift - Mastercard Reason Code 4853 Goods or. 4859 Description. 4853. Domestic chargeback dispute (Europe region only) This reason code may be used by issuer where a dispute is available according to the applicable domestic rule, but cannot be processed under a different message reason code. What are Chargeback reason codes and what do they mean? Support Go to Zai. EN. This might mean that the merchant submitted a batch of identical transactions more. A recurring transaction is a payment card charge that automatically reoccurs on a. The card issuer must wait at least 30 calendar days from the date the cardholder returned the merchandise, before charging back the transaction. Chargeback reason code 4853 is used to designate “Cardholder Disputes,” or disputes involving transactions that a customer claims are incorrect in some way. What is Visa Reason Code 13. 246 5. Example: 25. Level 3/Phase 3: Second presentment, second chargeback, or pre-arbitration. Condition 10. These codes fit into four categories:. Reason code: Explanation: 11. For more information about chargebacks filed with this reasoning, please see reason code 4853, subcategory Credit Not Processed. 6: Duplicate processing/Paid by other means. Issuers are currently allowed to use reason code 4860, however, this code will soon be eliminate. Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks Added the Valid Chip/PIN Transaction table within the Fraud-related Chargebacks section, Chip/PIN. This broad umbrella category includes an array of chargeback causes. 6. If new fees are incurred after the cancellation, communicate with the cardholder about how those charges should be handled. While there are reason codes related to processing errors that cause disputes, the majority of reason codes result from a cardholder disputing a charge. Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks Added the Valid Chip/PIN Transaction table within the Fraud-related Chargebacks section, Chip/PIN. Chargeback Reason Codes by Mesh - 2023 Guide. Code 10. Chargeback Guide (PDF) - MasterCard. 13 Example 13—Message Reason Code. Under certain circumstances, Mastercard may allow consumers to reverse a payment card transaction by filing a chargeback. 12 Example 12—Message Reason Code 4853—Cardholder Dispute. Chargeback FAQs . the date the goods were returned. Chargeback Message Reason Code 4901. NB: This chargeback reason was previously known as 4855. 10 views. Get definitive guide includes the chargeback reason codes from all of the to majority card networks. 12 Example 12—Message Reason Code 4853—Cardholder Dispute. Mastercard Reason Code 4853/Transaction Did Not Complete involves cases where the purchaser believed the transaction was not actually processed. The chargeback amount for Reason Code 53 and 4853 chargebacks is limited to the amount of the returned merchandise or canceled service and it may include shipping and handling fees. 1 - Card Recovery Bulletin. We say the given reason because it may or may not reflect the true reason. Always remind clients of upcoming charges with adequate time during the subscription billing cycle. 4853: Merchandise/Services Not as Described: 4854: Cardholder Dispute Not Elsewhere Classified (US Only) 4855: Non-receipt of Merchandise: 4856: Defective Merchandise:There is a USD 25 limit for the First Chargeback (Reason Code 22). 11, 16 November 2015, Elimination. Clearly and concisely communicate your terms and conditions for. Chargeback Reason Codes The Ultimate Guide; BIN Lookup Find a Card's Issuing Bank; ROI Tool The Cost of Chargebacks; Resource Hubs. Generally speaking, though, some or all of the following information will typically be needed: The chargeback. 4853 – Cardholder Dispute – Goods or Services Not ProvidedReason Code 4853: Cardholder Dispute – Defective/Not as described; And, Reason Code 4860: Credit Not Processed;. It is very similar to: Mastercard's 4853- Defective/Not as Described Reason Code. Change of Chargeback Reason to an Authorization-related Chargeback Replace ‘Change of Reason within the Cardholder Dispute Chargeback’ with this section. Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks Added the Valid Chip/PIN Transaction table within the Fraud-related Chargebacks section, Chip/PIN. Replaced Chapter 6—Compliance Procedures, with Chapter 5—Compliance Case Filing. the date the goods were returned. In certain circumstances a. Get your completes guide to Mastercard reason rules, containing all the detailed contact, chargeback time limitations, and select important information you needing. 4853 - Cardholder Dispute, Defective/Not as Described. The most common causes of this chargeback reason code are when services are not provided, merchandise is not shipped, transaction is billed. 2 chargebacks are frequently caused by customers forgetting to cancel a subscription before the next billing and then going to their bank to try to get their money back. Learn the details, the cause, how to respond and how to prevent Mastercard Reason Code 4853 Transaction Did Not Complete . Banks issue chargeback reason codes to help merchants understand why cardholders contest specific bills. The reason codes are as follows: American Express reason code C31, Visa reason code 53, MasterCard reason code 4853, or Discover reason code 4553. Here is an overview of how the general chargeback process works with most major processors (we’ll get into how Square does it down below) Step 1: A purchase occurs. Card networks send these codes to merchants to indicate why a. Solution Case Studies Partners Company Blog Resources Data & Compliance FAQ See It In Action. NB: This chargeback reason was previously known as 4855. Tags: Accepting payments may be accompanied by customer. It could. TIME LIMIT How long. 5. . These symbols stand for reasons why a financial institution may file a credit card chargeback from their client’s name. 13 Example 13—Message Reason Code. They shouldn't exceed 540 days from the transaction date. These are the phases: Level 1/Phase 1: Retrieval request or first presentment. Merchant Should Demonstrate: That service/item was as described or that any defects were fixed/defected items were replaced. Card Type Reason Code Reason Text Chargeback Category Preventable Reversible VISA 30 Services Not Provided or Merchandise NotMastercard Reason Code 4853 – Goods or Services Not Provided; Discover Reason Code AA – Does Not Recognize; In contrast, some reason codes are highly specific and apply only to a certain type. 1: EMV Liability Shift Counterfeit Fraud: 10. 13 Example 13—Message Reason Code. Reason code 4853 refers to the broad category “Cardholder Dispute. A chargeback reason code is a 2-to-4-digit alphanumeric code provided by the issuing bank involved in a chargeback, which is meant to identify the reason for the dispute. Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks Added the Valid Chip/PIN Transaction table within the Fraud-related Chargebacks section, Chip/PIN. 13. 4859 – No Show/Addendum/ATM Dispute. The codes also appear on financial reporting associated with disputes. 4853 – Cardholder Dispute – Credit Not Processed . 4853 – Cardholder Dispute: 120 days. merchants the ability to respond more quickly and resolve (or win) the dispute before suffering losses. . 4853. The cardholder claims an installment charge made to their account was incorrect. eCommerce. 4853: Issuer Dispute of a Recurring Transaction: 4853:. Your chargeback response must include at least one of the following items: Explanation and documentation to refute the cardholder’s claim. Chargeback Reason Codes Page 2 of 5. . 6. 12. Technical. Refer to the following list for accepted values in the field chbk_reason_code. Chargeback reason code 4853/Credit Not Processed applies to situations where customers claim they are owed a refund or other credit that has not appeared, but do not feel the issue being resolved by the. . Mistake 2 . Which Mastercard chargeback reason codes were condensed down in 2016, like the processed that Visa just underwent with Passport Claims Dissolution. 4846 = Incorrect currency or transaction code. Updated: Valid values updated. Chargeback Message Reason Code 4901. Step 2: Customer initiates the chargeback. Nevertheless, you must respond to the chargeback based on the given code. Chargeback Message Reason Code 4901. 13 Example 13—Message Reason Code. 246 5. Arbitration Case Filing. 6. The issuer should file a chargeback within 120 days after the transaction date. A reason code is how banks categorize the reason for a chargeback. . Using our e-commerce fraud prevention tools, we help lower friendly fraud costs and chargeback rates, but also reduce gift card and coupon abuse, and promote secure login authentication. 6. Step 1: The cardholder disputes a charge. Merchants who receive a chargeback for a transaction placed with a Mastercard card may encounter reason code 4850, which indicates an improperly authorized transaction that the cardholder does not believe they should be responsible for paying. Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks Added the Valid Chip/PIN Transaction table within the Fraud-related Chargebacks section, Chip/PIN. Proof you have already refunded the transaction and credited the cardholder’s account. 246 5. When this occurs, Moneris will send the merchant a "Sales Draft Request" or. Reason codes are just what they sound like, an identification code used to categorize why a transaction is being refuted by the card holder. A chargeback is the potential outcome of a disputed credit or debit card transaction. Visa chargeback reason code 12. And customers file ‘Product Unacceptable’ Shopify payment chargebacks when they feel the goods they received either came damaged, was defective, or was not as described by. 246 5. This might mean that the merchant submitted a batch of identical transactions more. Mastercard /. Domestic Chargeback (works in EU only) 4853: Cardholder Dispute: 4850: Installment Billing Dispute: 4842: Late Presentment: 4808. Pre-arbitration gives the acquirer and issuer another chance. Legacy. instead of chargeback reason codes Chapter 3—Dual Message System Chargebacks, Overview, Chargeback Message Reason Codes, First Chargeback: MTI 1442 Removed all references to chargeback message reason code 4802—Requested/Required Information Illegible or Missing as announced in Global Security Bulletin No. You can contact Chargeback Expertz at the toll-free number+1 (888) 901-8653. 4855. 1 relates to goods or services that were not received (the Mastercard equivalent is code 4853). 4860 Credit Not Processed. Step 1: The cardholder disputes a charge. 4853: Canceled recurring transaction. Chargeback Reason Codes / Mastercard / 4853 – Cardholder Dispute – Transaction Did Not Complete Dispute Code 4853 Category Cardholder Dispute Message System Dual. The Mastercard dispute reason code 4853 Cardholder dispute is a relatively new reason code which is raised when the cardholder contacted their issuer claiming that one of the following dispute reasons is applicable: Services not provided/Merchandise not received. 9, 1 September 2016. 6. 6. 0 download. 6. 6. Merchant refuses as the policy doesn’t accept returns after 30 days. “Credit Not Processed” chargebacks should now be filed under Reason Code 4853. The third digit indicates the specific reason within that category. Pre-arbitration gives the acquirer and issuer. 1042. 4846 — Incorrect Currency Code. 4853 Cardholder disputes - Services / merchandise defective or not as described; 4854 Cardholder disputes - Not. Chargebacks Explained;Book 2: Average chargeback rates; Chapter 3: Chargeback Reason Codes Guide; Section 4: American Express Chargeback Purpose Codes; Chapter 5: Mastercard Chargeback Cause Codes; Chapter 6: Visa Chargeback Base Codes; Chapter 7: Chargeback responses; Chapter 8: Chargeback response templates; Chapter 9:. Every chargeback raised is done so with a reason code assigned to indicate why it was raised in the first place, these differ between networks, below we will dive into the most common codes across Visa and Mastercard. 9, 1 September 2016. Availability Date: October 24th, 2021. F01. Cardholder Disputes. Following the Mastercard dispute guidelines, consumer dispute chargebacks are filed under reason code 4853 - Cardholder Dispute. 4. F02. To help simplify things, we’ve compiled a list of chargeback codes used by the four major card networks: Visa, Mastercard, American Express, and Discover. Chapter 2 deleted, Chapters; of 379 /379. Get owner complete guide to Mastercard reason codes, including all the detailed informational, chargeback time limits, and other important information you need. 6. 1: Fraud (10) EMV Liability Shift Counterfeit Fraud: 10. Chargeback can only be requested under specific circumstances known as 'reason codes', as determined by guidelines set by American Express, Mastercard or Visa. 4853 – Cardholder Dispute – Counterfeit Goods. Reason Code Description; 4853: Services not provided/Merchandise not received. 4853 – Cardholder Dispute – Goods or Services Not as Described or Defective . The shorthand description is “Duplicate Processing/Paid by Other Means. 7: Defective goods and services: C32: RM: 13. What are Chargeback reason codes and what do they mean? Support Go to Zai. Depending on whether the documentation is required or not, Paymentology will submit these chargebacks on the client’s behalf. This includes, but is not limited to: • Goods or Services Not Provided • Goods or Services Were Either Not as Described or Defective • Credit Not Processed • Failed Travel Merchant. 6. 1. Digital Goods $25 or less.